PSA: BMW is absolutely insane

"Achtung" (jckix) 12/24/2015 at 18:57 • Filed to: None

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I have an E46 323i. It has had this little hesitation on acceleration from a complete stop. And, yes, it has a slushbox, so after Googling the problem, I came to the conclusion that the transmission fluid needed replaced.

I also came to the conclusion that BMW is out of their damn mind.

This is a photo of the transmission fluid pan. BMW believes that they have some sort of magical “lifetime oil.” This means that the dealers probably don’t change out the fluid, either... Which makes me wonder how many E46s have suffered transmission failure with the mechanic only to shrug and say “BMW says it’s lifetime fluid, but I guess you need a new transmission.”

By the way, yes, the fluid replacement fixed the hesitation.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 19:02

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Isn’t that a GM transmission?

Cé hé sin > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 12/24/2015 at 19:04

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Depends. What it isn’t is a BMW one.

Achtung > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 12/24/2015 at 19:06

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Yes, it’s the 5-speed GM tranny.

EL_ULY > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 19:08

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We never change the fluids on our Volvos, Lotus, Aston, and most Mercedes ever. If the customer gets it changed elsewhere (even if using the oem fluid) they almost 100% come back with worst issues. It’s not magic fluid. World standard fluid has been around forever and people and independent shops should not mess around with it.

It’s never a good thing when little shops or “specialty” shops call us for trans fluid. It never ends well

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 19:15

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Well then it’s not lifetime fluid, it’s just ATF.

they-will-know-my-velocity > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 19:17

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I’ve had this argument with my mechanic. Their specialization is rebuilding auto transmissions. Most new autos these days have this “lifetime oil.” This is because in most situations adding fresh fluid makes the problem worse in the long run. Not always, but usually.

Heat kills autos and when something is slipping it usually wears out whatever clutch band or valve is sticking. While it’s doing this it can also start to eat some of the planetary gears. Like my 5r55S transmission from my S197. It ate the 5th gear planetary.

Here’s the issue with the fluid that the manufacturers have figured out. If you take a transmission with 100,000 plus miles, your fluid has little particulate matter of all the rubber seals and bushings in it where they have started to wear. This is expected, they are doing their job. Any metal bits are on the magnet in the pan or in the filter, out of the way of moving parts.

When you put in fresh fluid you are putting in new detergents. The original fluid has been diluted and “softened” to the environment in the transmission. Something starts to slip and you replace it and the new fluid just proceeds to eat the already soft seals and possibly also washes metal particulate out from whatever cracks it was hiding in to freely circulate among the gears and valves. Obviously, this is a problem.

So, they don’t recommend you change the fluid. Ever. Because in most cases it causes more harm than good. As long as the fluid inside never leaks out, the sealed unit is cheaper to run (for them anyway) than it is to build a unit that can be serviced.

Moral of the story - buy a manual.

04sneaky - Boxers. Blowers. Bikes. And bitches. > EL_ULY 12/24/2015 at 19:18

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I’ve heard this and also experienced this in many transmissions. New fluid and new additives don’t seem to do anything but cause problems. If there was something that was straight fluid I think it’d be fine. But anytime I’ve put in new ATF or GL4/5 it seems to whine and clunk worse than ever.

EL_ULY > 04sneaky - Boxers. Blowers. Bikes. And bitches. 12/24/2015 at 19:25

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Indeed sir. The fix for the original poster here most likely was a level issue or a software reload/upgrade (since car is plugged in to a scantool for the refill process)

gergey - Wishes vette was Datsun > they-will-know-my-velocity 12/24/2015 at 20:25

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I like your moral

E92M3 > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 21:52

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I think BMW assumed there would be a leak or failure before 100k miles, causing you to change it anyway. I find it hard to believe very many transmissions will make it to 300k miles without ever changing the fluid.

There’s some debate on BMW doing this to save money on “Free” maintenence, and also to lower “True Cost To Own” estimates. If you compared BMW’s TCO values with just an example, Acura models in the same class you’d see BMW’s costing a bit more (but not THAT bad). If you factored in changing all the fluids every 60k miles it would likely double the TCO.

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 21:54

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I changed the fluid on my e38 at 182k miles. Fluid was original and the filter was the original factory filter (a February 1996 filter). Before the change it didn’t like kickdown and made some awful shifts in sport mode. The fluid was dirty and didn’t smell burnt. So far I’ve changed it twice, it flairs cold and into overdrive and whines on 2-3 when cold but what to expect the fluid has never been changed beforehand. I wish this car had a normal dipstick. Point of the story get an e38 with a 5hp30 under 100k miles or swap in a ls motor with a 4L60e.

bryan40oop > Achtung 12/24/2015 at 22:43

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Most manufacturers are like this, or 150mile interval these days. Which is fine, if you don’t plan on keeping the car past that mark.

bryan40oop > they-will-know-my-velocity 12/24/2015 at 22:45

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One thing you missed. It’s not so much the bushings & seals, they are a factor but the biggest issue is the drum & band friction material. They wear, no stopping it. But once you flush or drain your old fluid you also take away any of that friction material floating around in your transmission. That’s when the bands & drums begin to slip, they have nothing to grab with.

valsidalv, reminding you that infiniti is an option > they-will-know-my-velocity 12/24/2015 at 23:09

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I read a lot of this on forums when I was contemplating changing the ATF on my G35x. In the end people recommend doing a drain instead of a complete system flush to maintain some of the old fluid. Greatly smoothed my shifts especially from 1st to 2nd.

they-will-know-my-velocity > bryan40oop 12/25/2015 at 08:06

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Yep, this too.

mikethebike > Achtung 01/15/2016 at 18:21

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another problem with those 323 transmissions is the reverse drum in the ZF’s nuke themselves

REO Jackwagon > Achtung 01/15/2016 at 18:23

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At least they haven’t tried to just leave off the oil fill cap and say the motor has lifetime oil. At least they gave a part number for the oil you are not supposed to change.

wkiernan > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/15/2016 at 18:29

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Well that’s interesting, and by that I mean “depressing.” A few months after I bought a used ‘04 Miata I noticed that the shifting was sloppy, so I took the shifter apart, and I found that the plastic bushing at the bottom of the shift lever was completely shot. So I got all new shifter parts and put it back together, and what a terrific difference! it shifts nice and tight like a Miata should.

But then I read on miata.net that, unlike the NA, the NB shifter doesn’t have a separate sealed compartment at the bottom of the shift lever. Instead the bottom of the shift lever is located in the same housing as the rest of the transmission. Well, the lower rubber boot (which I had replaced) had been completely deteriorated and torn, which meant that the interior of the transmission case had been open and exposed to the elements for at least several months. Every time I drove over a puddle, some of the water and road dirt could have splashed right into the transmission case. So I had the transmission oil replaced. And now you’re telling me that this might have screwed up my transmission worse than if I had just left it alone!

HammerheadFistpunch > Achtung 01/15/2016 at 18:50

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Lexus did this with the GX470 I guess. Turns out its not that hard to change and is required after a while.

they-will-know-my-velocity > wkiernan 01/15/2016 at 18:51

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Well, transmission fluid is better than muddy water so...

I’m still unconvinced that auto transmissions aren’t 90% black magic so maybe it’ll be ok.

HammerheadFistpunch > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/15/2016 at 18:53

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I’ve heard this over and over again. I don’t buy it. (270k on original trans)

they-will-know-my-velocity > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 19:12

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Exception to every rule. My third transmission was proof enough to make me wary.

Naughty0ne2Pointoh > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/15/2016 at 19:12

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That is an interesting story but in no way in sync with reality.

HammerheadFistpunch > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/15/2016 at 19:20

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Maybe it’s just the transmission. I’ve put 200k or more on 2 different ones changing regularly with no issues. The trouble, in my opinion, is when people wait too long to change their transmission fluid. if you change it frequently then you don’t all the gunk issues

JasonStern911 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 20:29

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FWIW, my understanding is that it is better to periodically change the transmission fluid. but if it has not been changed in regular intervals. it’s better to just let it ride and put the money towards an eventual replacement.

JDUBB1953 > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/15/2016 at 20:55

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In my shop, the rule is if the vehicle is over 120K and hasn’t had a flush yet, just leave it alone. I sell a lot of 90K services, which usually include a trans flush. I have also had plenty of customers come in at 200K with a shifting issue and demand I flush their trans. I explain that is just about a 50/50 shot on whether it will completely ruin their trans, and I have had to replace many because of it.

SirRaoulDuke > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 22:46

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Frequent changes is the key. Otherwise, just leave it be.

JGrabowMSt > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/15/2016 at 22:48

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Ive got 170k on the HEMIWagon’s trans. I changed the fluid at 148k, and there was an immediate noticeable change in performance. The fluid has been changed (out of necessity, cant drop the motor without draining and dropping the trans) and the trans still feels good. I had the SL’s trans fluid changed at 112k and it was a world of a difference.

Im aware there can be problems, but I would say serious problems are if you change the trans fluid after 150k. 148k in the Magnum was cutting it very close, but I was changing radiators and filters after I bought the car.

It also depends on how beat up the car is. I would say its less common to have problems than it is to encounter issues when changing the fluid, manual or auto.

JGrabowMSt > JDUBB1953 01/15/2016 at 22:51

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I fully agree, though I pushed things closer to 150k, but mostly because I didnt anticipate a radiator/filter change 1200 miles into my ownership. I would definitely agree on 120k max.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/16/2016 at 00:48

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m2m, apex detective > Achtung 01/16/2016 at 06:56

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“Lifetime warranty” ends with the death of the product ... right?
That’s how I read these, anyway.

Good on you for wandering off-protocol!

-this space for rent- > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/16/2016 at 08:59

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Which transmission do you have? My wife’s e46 is a GM 5L40E...

they-will-know-my-velocity > -this space for rent- 01/16/2016 at 09:05

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FoMoCO 5R55 is the one I’m referring to hear. It’s not a great transmission but is reasonably reliable. Same transmissions in the Exploders and the panther body vehicles as well as the S197's.

Master Cylinder > Achtung 01/16/2016 at 10:00

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My wife’s Equinox isn’t quite that bad (they don’t claim “lifetime” fluid) but they made it next to impossible to actually change out the fluid. You can only drain about a third of it at a time, so all you can do is drain a bit out, add some new fluid, run it for a couple days to mix the fluids, drain a bit more, add some more new fluid, and so on about 4 times until you’ve replaced the same volume of fluid that the trans holds. But it’s not purely new fluid, either. So dumb.

It did fix the transmission error code that she was getting, though.